三個可變電阻您會配vvt 還是 vtt

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  1. 335

    335 New Member

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    三個pots 您會配vvt還是vtt?請教各位的考量為何?
     
  2. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    vvt 是指兩個 volume 一個 tone control 嗎?這個問題挺奇怪,沒頭沒腦的....這樣說好了,若是三個單線圈的 strat 我寧可要傳統的兩個 tone;若是兩個雙線圈的 strat 我會考慮用兩個 volume control
     
  3. 馬提

    馬提 New Member

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    單單單用一個volume就好
    單單雙就用2個volume,250k給單線圈,500k(或1Meg)給雙線圈
     
  4. Blash

    Blash New Member

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      稍微補充一下。若要用超過一個vol. control,請注意vol. pot上三隻接腳的接法跟一般Strat上vol. pot的接法不太一樣:此時要用pot改變的是拾音器的+與ground間的阻值(換言之要把拾音器的+接在三隻腳中的中間那隻),而非如一般Strat上,用pot改變output jack +與ground間的阻值。

      承上,如果用兩個vol. pot,但又用Strat的vol.接法,你會發現當同時選用兩個拾音器時,音量控制會變得一陣混亂,兩顆vol. pot會變成兩顆拾音器共有的master vol. control;只要一顆vol.轉到最小,也會把另一顆拾音器的+給短路到ground,整把琴就沒聲音了。我自己沒這樣接過,但猜想可能只有在很小的範圍內(例如knob刻度上10~7間)有mix音量比例的效果。

      鄙人則不理會廠商說“雙線圈拾音器就要用500k或1M Ω pot“那一套。我那把同時有Kinman跟Tone Zone(humbucker)的琴就直接用一顆250k Ω pot當master volume,簡單、平宜、好控制。基本上琴上的各種控制,如果不能讓使用者在半秒(或更短)內確實完成由音色甲切換到音色乙的動作,而且不會出錯,就不算是實用性很高的好設計,或說大而無當。
     
  5. 335

    335 New Member

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    先感謝大家..
    to jeff:若是兩個雙線圈的 strat 我會考慮用兩個 volume control...
    我也曾有這樣的想法,不過想聽聽您要這麼配的原因
    謝謝了..
     
  6. 335

    335 New Member

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    sorry Jeff:
    我不清楚你講的blender pot 是什麼?可否說一下?謝謝
     
  7. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    to jeffback : 我的想法很簡單,只是希望可以 mix 兩個雙線圈的聲音。但就像 Blash 說的,這種情形下要切換音色有點麻煩,搞到最後可能還不如一個 volume、一個 tone 加一個 blender pot 來得方便。

    另外,我也不相信什麼線圈非得配什麼 pot,畢竟那都只是一些古老、概略的作法。目前的市場上,單線圈拾音器 output 高過雙線圈者大有人在不是嗎?以前也見過某些人力推 1M pot,我覺得 player 自己喜歡就好了,沒必要去 follow 什麼規則。
     
  8. 馬提

    馬提 New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 另外,我也不相信什麼線圈非得配什麼 pot,畢竟那都只是一些古老、概略的作法。目前的市場上,單線圈拾音器 output 高過雙線圈者大有人在不是嗎? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    這不就是那最古老的問題嗎?
    hi output的單線圈就是為了掩飾當其在250k時會發生的tone壓縮、不夠放的問題,故刻意增加gain和pres,聽起來高出力的單線圈tone不會像所謂真正的單線圈自然
     
  9. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    Blender pot 我不曉得是從什麼時候開始有的,不過我最早是在 Fralin pickups 上遇到。它們網站上有圖解,下面這個是傳統 strat 的線路:

    [​IMG]

    What does a blender pot do?

    A blender pot will fade in the neck pickup to the bridge position and bridge pickup to the neck position.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    dear 馬提,

    我想您有點搞混pickup output 大小與 pot value 的關係,雖然它們是非常密切相關連的,提供一個比較 general 的想法請參考....

    建議您在選擇 pickup 時先決定您想要多大 output 再來考慮搭配什麼樣的 pot。我想這是一個比較符合大多數人需求的做法,通常也是廠商採用的做法。

    因此

    "hi output的單線圈就是為了掩飾當其在250k時會發生的tone壓縮、不夠放的問題,故刻意增加 gain 和 pres"

    這個說法只是 half true 而且從常理來判斷也說不通,因為廠商只要換個 pot 就好,何必大費周章弄一個 high output pickup 來 "掩飾" pot 不搭配的問題?

    總之,多數人的需求就是 Blash 說的 "簡單、平宜、好控制" 罷了;除非要有特殊音色否則實用還是最重要。
     
  11. 馬提

    馬提 New Member

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    可能我觀念有誤,
    那請問一個問題,
    同樣的pickup,用250k和500k的pot,對聲音有何影響?
    因為如果像傳說中說的,250k的聲音是最好聽也是最有動態感的,那麼在tone的考量下,幾個tone幾個vol我覺得倒不是那麼重要,對我而言。況且太多的音色變化,我也可能永遠只用那幾個...
    感謝指教..
     
  12. Blash

    Blash New Member

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      那blender pot照圖看應該是用一顆相當大(say, 1M ohm)的pot,當它兩隻有接線的接腳電阻轉到最大時,對於頻響範圍不算大的電吉他拾音器訊號形同斷路。當從最大轉到最小時,則是看你五段開關選用的位置,除了最中間那段不受blender pot影響外,其他四段則分別混入neck pu與bridge pu的訊號。

      至於馬提問到用多大阻值的vol. pot,那是可以算出來的,所以也有人提出大部分的單線圈其實要用330k ohm的vol. pot才能讓cut off frequency剛好在20kHz(一般人聽覺的上限)的地方。它跟一般導體內不同頻率的訊號通過速度不同有關,或說該導體內不同頻率的有不同阻抗,所以會造成不同ohm的vol pot會改變音色;有興趣的話,記得Kinman的網站中FAQ還是Tone Workshop之類的地方有討論怎麼算。但每棵拾音器的相關參數都不一樣,算出來的結果會差很多,所以說“單線圈用250k、雙線圈用500k“乃至後來的“330k說“,其實都只是簡化後的結論,參考一下就好 。但 像我比較喜歡沉一點的聲音,用250k ohm pot就不會有太離譜的結果。

    p.s.之前有人提到某湯姆的琴上有二十多種拾音器組合的變化就真的是大而無當。其中可能有好幾種是電路上重複的組合,再者使用者切換時也容易被搞得糊裡糊塗的不知身在何處。
     
  13. 335

    335 New Member

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    .1或.022這對音色有何影響呢?(jeff貼的是.002的ㄟ!!)
    昨晚亂改,結果兩個tone pots都失效只剩volume能動作,但是聲音卻出奇的透明清澈,只是切到雙時習模當肯在distornation tone的驚人表現就沒那麼好了,不過clean tone真的讓我大吃一驚,到現在還不知道這是怎麼一回事
     
  14. eMerson

    eMerson New Member

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    請問Blash大大說"沉一點的聲音" 所以用250k 的pot,這樣子和用500k的聲音差多少呢?
    還有聽說電容的材質也有影響是怎麼樣???
     
  15. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    偶然又點到 Dan Torres 的網站,他就是那幾個鼓吹人們換高阻抗 POT 的傢伙之一。他的理由是這樣:

    How 1 and 2 meg pots work

    Lots of people, even techs do not understand how a higher value pot (potentiometer) will raise the gain of a guitar. This comes from not knowing how the pot works.

    Your pickup is connected to one side of the pot. The other side of the pot is connected to ground. Between these two outside tabs, there is an "element." This is just a resistor and the pot's value. If you have a 250k pot, the "element" resistor is 250k. The middle tab of the pot is connected to the shaft of the pot. When you turn it, the wiper goes around the element varying the resistance.

    The important part of this info is that one side of the pot is connected to ground. Even with the volume on 10, the pickup is connected to ground via a resistor/value of the pot. Some of the pickup's signal is "short circuited" to ground and lost.

    So - raise the value of the pot, from say, 250k (which is 250,000 ohms) to 1 meg (which is 1,000,000 ohms) and the resistance to ground is higher - LESS of the signal is shorted to ground, MORE of the signal fights it's way down the guitar cord to the amp - the pickups become hotter, and frequency response is raised because there is much less load on the pickups. Higher pot value means less load, Less load means more gain. Easy once you understand it.
    =======================================

    以上偷自: http://www.torresengineering.com/how1and2megp.html
     
  16. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    關於控制 tone control 的電容值與材料,不妨看看 Harmonic Design 的 Scott Petersen 怎麼說:

    Cap value and tone?

    Aside from the more obvious change, (when you turn down the tone control, bigger caps cut more highs and volume) even without turning down the control, the tone cap can affect the sound slightly.That why PRS eventually added a switch and dummy tone control circuit to their early guitars.Without a tone control at all, the sound is slightly brighter and edgy, with less midrange. Higher value caps shift the resonant frequency of the pickups and wiring combination to a lower frequency and allow a slightly warmer/fatter tone. This modest effect is perhaps more noticeable to the player than a listener and varies in intensity with different pickup and pot combinations. Strats are perhaps the most sensitive, and metal covered humbuckers probably the least sensitive to these changes. It's probabaly best to use a switch to try out different caps while you're playing, to really be sure how much difference it makes, and to avoid voodoo and/or wishful thinking..

    What's often lost in the discussion about tone caps is that they're NOT akin to the coupling caps in a guitar amp or tube Hi-Fi amp. Those caps are conducting the signal (your tone) from one stage to the next and decent grade caps are usually more efficient at higher frequencies, and sound 'better'. You CAN actually hear a difference, although many amps including Fender and Boogie, intentionally use a low-grade ceramic cap to couple the pre-amp to the power-amp. It's a slighty darker, grittier tone.

    But all this vibe about using high-grade caps is pretty meaningless in a guitar tone control. The cap isn't conducting your tone at all, it's merely rolling off some treble to ground...sort of a detour.With that in mind, it's arguable that a LOW-GRADE cap would be better for a tone control. More inductance and a poor high-frequency characteristic would leave a slighty clearer tone, if anything, and reduce the effect of the tone control when it's fully dimmed-out....and they certainly seem to be pretty common. If Fender, or anybody else, could noticeably 'improve' their guitar's tone by merely susbstituting a cap costing 50 cents more, they'd have figured that out a long time ago.

    ======================================
    以上偷自: http://www.harmonicdesign.net/faqsfolder/faq20.html
     
  17. Blash

    Blash New Member

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      Jeff提供的兩篇,獨自看來都是相當正確的觀念,但從總體來看則也許可以補充幾點他們沒提到的因素:

    一、我們當然可以換大一點的volume pot來提高對地的阻抗,保留較多的高頻。不過除了一些特殊設計外,廠商設計大部分被動式拾音器,決定其所用磁棒材質、繞線數、繞線面積等要素時,都預設使用者的琴上配的不是250k ohm,就是500k ohm的pot,然後才據以決定其產品的音色特性。如果這時還跑去用1M ohm的pot,得到的將是與廠商的預定值不同的音色。不過關於音色本來也沒什麼客觀上的不好就是,我們只是要去做個選擇。只是希望大家作的選擇是根基於理性,而非根基於片面的迷信。

    二、電吉他tone circuit用“low grade“的旁路電容,結果是:我們大概過兩三年就會發現電吉他的音色有所改變,因為該“low grade“電容已開始degrading。不過通常過個兩三年,你其他的器材如效果器、音箱等早已換個人事全非。是以電吉他本身音色,因劣質電容折舊的改變,反而變得不明顯或不重要。但我還是以為要所謂“ clearer“的音色,為何不多花個50 cent買個活得比久的high grade(實質壽命多在十年以上)電容器?只消用小一點的(我自己就用6800pF)電容不也有“clearer“的音色?
     
  18. Jeff

    Jeff 吉他版主

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    感謝 Blash 的補充,這也是為什麼我常說大家看看做參考就好的原因。通常類似這種帶有武斷口氣的文章都太偏頗,Scott Petersen 在他另一篇 FAQ 裡居然有這麼離譜的說法:

    quote: 2. SMALLER value tone caps sound brighter, larger caps can increase the mid-range response of the pickups. This can affect your sound even when the tone control is turned on '10'. The radical shift in tone on a Strat bridge pickup demonstrates this effect. The bridge pickup has the smallest value tone cap-(NONE) and produces the brightest tone....
     

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