JCM800 VS JVM410H

本文由 carreragt5002014-03-07 發表於 "效果器、Amp、DIY" 討論區

  1. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    感謝各位
    近期應該會去試試410:D
    有問題再請教了:)
     
  2. [] JEM.ZAX []

    [] JEM.ZAX [] Active Member

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    有410JS更好喔!!! :)
     
  3. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    怎說呢?
    光頭喬的410跟一般的410差在哪?
     
  4. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

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    1.4Ch.的Reverb全部改成Noise Gate。(反正Marshall的Reverb很雞肋)

    2.Clean Ch.改成6100 Based / 6100 Hot / 6100 More Hot;
     Crunch加入AFD100的迴路 (為什麼不是JS自己的Overdrive?);
     OD1跟OD2變成同一種音色,410JS實際上只有9種音色;
     OD1/2是以410的OD1為基礎砍掉一點Gain,並追加OD1/2共用的Mid Shift (Off=650khz→On=500khz)

    原則上來說410JS跟410其實沒啥關連,Tone都不一樣了。
     
  5. [] JEM.ZAX []

    [] JEM.ZAX [] Active Member

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  6. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    最近在猶豫210或410了
    今天在Marshall官網下載了210跟410的Handbook
    稍微整理了一下
    210 Clean/Crunch Green = 410 Clean Green→就是Clean Tone
    210 Clean/Crunch Orange = 410 Crunch Green→好像是JTM45/1959:confused:
    210 Clean/Crunch Red = 410 Crunch Orange→看起來是JCM800:D
    210 Overdrive Green = 410 OD1 Green→不一樣的JCM800:confused:
    210 Overdrive Orange = 410 OD1 Orange→好像是上一個Ch+更多的Gain:eek:
    210 Overdrive Red = 410 OD1 REd→把上一個Ch再+更多的Gain:eek::eek:

    只是410多了
    Clean 的Orange,Red→有點看不懂:confused:
    Crunch 的Red→比Crunch Orange更多Gain的JCM800
    OD2 的Green,Orange,Red→應該是Metal Tone:confused::confused::confused:

    我相信有人一定會說預算夠就直接買410
    但我看了看,好像210就已經有我要的聲音了
    會不會買了410常用的還是那幾個210有的Ch:confused:
     
  7. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

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    差異就如同我前面所講的,順序是Green / Orange / Red:
    410
     Clean=1 / 2 / 1959 Drive
     Cruch=1959 / 800 Drive / 800 Heavy Drive
     OD1=2000 / 2000 more gain / 2000 more more gain
     OD2=New / New / New
    210
     Clean/Cruch=1 / 800 Drive / 800 Heavy Drive
     OD2=New / New / New
    1959/2000在210上是完全被砍掉的,我參考的是Marshall日本官方網站,但好像跟Handbook提到的不同?
    http://www.marshallamps.jp/jvm_features.html

    用不用的到就看個人習慣,我自己也曾經有過一台十幾種音色的Tube Amp,最後也只固定使用其中3~4種音色。
    如果用途偏多樣化的話,音色越多就越好用;但如果喜好很明顯的話,終究也只會用自己喜歡的音色。
    我自己也曾考慮410,但如前所述、到頭來也是只用那幾種,所以我後來買了JCM2000 DSL。
    Clean / Crunch / Overdrive / Distortion一應俱全,想要不一様的Drive Tone就用單顆來補強,對我來說單顆的用途就在這裡。
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-22
  8. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    咦!?!?
    我是從Marshall官網下載的,跟木頭兄在日本官網看到的不一樣:confused::confused:

    210 http://www.marshallamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/JVM2-hbk-Eng4.pdf

    410 http://www.marshallamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/JVM-hbk-Eng1.pdf

    210的Ch原文介紹
    CLEAN/CRUNCH CHANNEL (8)
    CLEAN/CRUNCH GREEN MODE: This is the
    cleanest of the three modes and, in keeping with
    traditional clean amps, it uses a simple and
    straightforward circuit keeping the signal as pure
    as possible. In this Mode the channel’s Volume
    control is taken out of circuit as is the case in
    vintage amplifiers of this nature. This is the only
    JVM mode where this happens.
    CLEAN/CRUNCH ORANGE MODE: This mode
    shares the preamp topology of the classic
    Marshall JTM45/1959 ‘Plexi’ models (i.e.: gain +
    gain + tone) but with a bit more gain than is
    found in the originals.
    CLEAN/CRUNCH RED MODE: This mode is
    reminiscent of the Marshall JCM800 2203
    amplifier, a staple of hard rock. The gain
    structure is gain + gain + gain + tone.
    OVERDRIVE CHANNEL (9)
    OVERDRIVE GREEN MODE: This is very
    similar to the hot-rodded JCM800 sound found
    in ‘Crunch Red’, allowing you to dial-in two
    distinctly different yet similar crunch sounds if
    you so wish - one in each channel.
    OVERDRIVE ORANGE MODE: This adds
    another gain stage to the ‘Overdrive Green’
    circuit, resulting in a sound that’s perfect for
    singing leads and hard rock/heavy metal tones.
    OVERDRIVE RED MODE: Adds more gain to
    the ‘Overdrive Orange’ for a high gain Marshall
    sound.

    410Ch原文介紹
    1. CLEAN CHANNEL
    CLEAN GREEN MODE: This is the cleanest of
    the three modes and, in keeping with traditional
    clean amps it uses a simple and straightforward
    circuit, keeping the signal as pure as possible.
    In this Mode the channel’s Volume control is
    taken out of circuit as is the case in vintage
    amplifiers of this nature. This is the only JVM
    mode where this happens.
    CLEAN ORANGE MODE: By adding another
    gain stage after the tone stack we get a
    punchier sound that’s easy to overdrive. As in
    the rest of the modes the channel's Volume
    control is now active.
    CLEAN RED MODE: This mode pushes the
    original clean sound even more and transforms
    itself into a pseudo high gain channel with the
    addition of yet another gain stage after the tone
    stack.
    In keeping with the classic clean amps of
    yesteryear, all three modes of this channel
    feature what is known as a pre-gain tone stack
    (i.e. the tone network lies before the channel's
    main gain stage). The reverse (i.e. the tone
    network being after the main gain stage) is
    typical of most Marshalls and, as a result, the
    Clean channel's tone controls work in a slightly
    different way than you might expect. In addition
    to controlling the tone of the channel they also
    affect how it reacts in terms of gain, allowing
    you to shape how the signal distorts.
    For example, turning up the Middle control on
    higher Gain settings will focus the distortion
    there, making your sound ‘sing’ in a traditional
    blues/rock way. Also, because of the channels’
    ‘tone then gain’ topology, when a lot of gain is
    dialled in (especially in the case of the RED
    mode), it may appear that its tone controls aren't
    doing as much as you’d expect or sound over
    distorted. This is because the signal is being
    distorted after the tone stage, minimising the
    effectiveness of the Bass, Middle and Treble
    controls.
    2. CRUNCH CHANNEL
    At this point the JVM reverts to the more typical
    Marshall preamp circuit characteristic of ‘gain
    then tone’. This is also true of the OD1 and OD2
    channels.
    CRUNCH GREEN MODE: This mode shares
    the preamp topology of the classic Marshall
    JTM45/1959 ‘Plexi’ models (i.e.: gain + gain +
    tone) but with a bit more of gain than is found in
    the originals.
    CRUNCH ORANGE MODE: This mode is
    reminiscent of the Marshall JCM800 2203
    amplifier, a staple of hard rock. The gain
    structure is gain + gain + gain + tone.
    CRUNCH RED MODE: this shares the topology
    of the Orange mode but with more gain, giving
    you sounds similar to a hot-rodded JCM800.
    3. OD1 CHANNEL
    OD1 GREEN MODE: This is very similar to the
    hot-rodded JCM800 sound found in ‘Crunch
    Red’, allowing you to dial-in two distinctly
    different yet similar crunch sounds if you so wish
    - one in each channel.
    OD1 ORANGE MODE: This adds another gain
    stage to the ‘OD1 Green’ circuit, resulting in a
    sound that’s perfect for singing leads and hard
    rock/heavy metal tones.
    OD1 RED MODE: Adds more gain to the ‘OD1
    Orange’ for a high gain Marshall sound.
    4. OD2 CHANNEL
    This channel is similar to the OD1 channel but
    with even more gain and a slightly different tone
    network with the Middle control shifted down to
    being centred around 500 Hz instead of the
    more typical Marshall value of 650 Hz. The
    result is 3 high gain modes that are ideal for
    both lead and modern rhythm metal tones.

    我是去對照原文的Ch才得到我上面所分析的,跟木頭兄說得不太一樣:confused:
    簡單說210的Overdrive就是410的OD1
    210的Clean/Crunch1,2,3是410的Clean的1跟Crunch的1,2
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-22
  9. rockheart

    rockheart Member

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    說一下我的意見
    平常玩jvm410h大多是這樣分

    我玩clean ,當然是用clean green
    clean orange則是會有一點破,gain到了一定程度,就會變overdrive
    clean red 很破的clean...基本上拿來玩blues/solo很不錯

    70's
    crunch green 很乾淨的小破音 沒在用
    crunch orange 應該就有crunch tone的感覺了,但是gain很少
    crunch red gain比orange多,但是玩solo還是有點吃力

    80'
    od1 green 類似crunch red,但是很乾淨…基本上只是太乾淨的破音實在很少用
    od1 orange 玩80的hard rock我的best choice,刷扣 solo都好用
    od1 red 很兇的overdirve了…開始有點吃痛,感覺orange就夠我用了

    metal
    od2 green 同理 like od1 red but clean
    od2 orange more gain metal tone ,可是,玩metal gain會覺得少 solo可能較吃力
    od2 red 通常玩metal直接就選red mode了,搭配RESONANCE和presence很好用

    所以基本上常玩的約4個 (clean /blues/metal/hr )
    果玩funk 70's 可能會再多幾個channel吧…

    買jvm4一定會剩的啦…除非你超全能。可是真的蠻不錯玩的XD 無聊時還是會玩玩其他的tone :D

    210我記得當初在看的時候,就是該有都有了…算很齊的音箱了
     
  10. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    小弟我應該下個月會購入210+1960
    因為第一次使用H+Cab,有問題想請教
    就是H跟Cab連接的問題

    210H後面有5個孔
    左邊上下兩孔寫1X4OHM
    2X8OHM
    中間上下兩孔寫1X8OHM
    2X16OHM
    右邊單孔寫1X16OHM

    1960後面
    左邊上面寫4OHM Input
    下面寫8OHM Right

    右邊上面寫16OHM Input
    下面寫8OHM Left

    中間有單聲道跟雙聲道的切換

    我要怎麼接?
    有下載原文說明書,但看不是很懂
    有提到好像不能怎麼接,會壞掉?
     
  11. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

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    Cab上有Stereo跟Mono兩種模式的切換,如果沒有要接兩台Head請切到Mono。
    切Mono時可插4 ohm & 16 ohm,切記不可同時使用,插了4 ohm就不可以插16 ohm
    當切到Stereo的時候表示左右都可以插8 ohm,各Input輸入瓦數為最大容許的一半、各控制左右兩顆的Speaker,可同時使用。

    Head的4 ohm(mono) x1 = 8 ohm x2(Setereo)代表如果只插一條導線則輸出為4 ohm、同時插兩條為 8 ohm。

    簡單來說如果沒有要接Full Stack (兩台Cab)的話,210搭1960(Mono)時4 & 16 ohm(Mono)可擇一輸入。
    記得4接4、16接16。(雖然有例外、但建議不要自找麻煩)

    個人認為4 ohm比較有Punch,樓主可自己試看看,但記得更換喇叭線必須在Stand by或關機狀態下進行。
    還有喇叭線用好一點,這個影響比吉他導線還大,沒有特殊需求的話越短越好,除非之後會買Input開在最下面的Cab。
    電源線就有閒錢再購入,影響不大;換了電源線就感覺飛上天的話,除非有天賦異稟的好耳朵、不然八成都是心理作用。
    喇叭線>訊號線>電源線。

    記得一定要在Head有連接Cab (有負載)的情形下演奏;Stand by暖機至少3~5分鐘,我聽過有人暖十幾分鐘,"據說"Tone會比較開。
    但我認識的技師通常都不暖機,他總是說「壞了再修就好」。XD
    啊、還有Head盡量不要接瓦數比它小的Cab,除非可以確定自己"絕對"不會輸出超過Cab可乘載瓦數的音量。
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-30
  12. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    所以說如果只是1H1cab,"能"接的只有1X4 ohm 或1X16 ohm 嗎:confused:
    那如果把cab切成Stereo,是不是變成H要接1X8ohm,cab接right 8ohm或left 8ohm,但只有一半的喇叭會有聲音,是這樣嗎?
    那左下的2X8跟中間下面的,2X16甚麼時候會用到?
     
  13. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

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    對、因為1960的Mono就只有4 & 16可以接。
    如果Cab有8 ohm Mono,就可以接8 ohm x1

    對。但要注意Cab切Stereo後的瓦數盡量不要小於Head。
    這麼接沒有甚麼意義就是了,若想要2x12的Tone、我個人會直接買顆2x12來用。

    用在接兩台8 or 16 ohm的時候使用;例如像在演唱會上常見的雙層Full Stack。
    簡單來說、就是垂直的兩個Output是一組。
    以1x4 ohm = 2x8 ohm為例:只插一條Cab線時就是輸出4 ohm,插兩條線就是輸出8 ohm。
    意思就是當你要輸出給兩台Cab時,若兩台Cab都是8 ohm Mono,Head這邊就是要拿兩條Cab線插1x4、2x8這一組,
    同理、若兩台Cab是16 ohm Mono,Head就是插1x8、2x16。

    若兩台Cab的Mono不同,如1台只有8、另一台只有16時,我就不曉得怎麼接了。
    我個人會避免這樣的狀況發生,若真的遇到了就看看有沒有版友能解釋。

    有疑問的話請購買的店家實際測試一遍就知道了。
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-29
  14. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    OK我知道了,感謝木頭兄
    不過我想之後應該還有很多問題要請教你:p
     
  15. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

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    關於樓主在其他串詢問的Cab線問題,我覺得回在這篇比較有統一性,所以選擇這串回覆。

    下面是我實際聽過的牌子:
    預算夠的話攻頂就選VOVOX Sonorus Drive Speaker Cables,
    要乾淨又要較硬的顆粒感、就選Evidence Audio Siren II Speaker Cable,
    若需要暗一點、壓縮感較重、顆粒較緊的音色就選Monster Performer 1000 Speaker Cable (台灣好像500居多,1000沒看過)。

    個人是Analysis Plus的愛用者、所有的線材(訊號/喇叭/電源/監聽)都是它們家的;
    但因為它Pure Sound的性格,我認識的吉他手都不太喜歡,加上價格不低,所以我不太會去推這家的產品。
    反倒是Vovox會比較適合用在吉他上面。

    很多人都願意把預算大筆地投注在吉他、音箱上面,但卻對線材斤斤計較。
    其實線材才是最值得投資的、因為它是連結器材的管道,一條對味的線基本上就是用一輩子了。
    但也不必無限上綱,畢竟一定價位以上的線大概都是在比個性、而非優劣。(也可套用到吉他上)
    瘋狂到找鍍金、或鍍銀、全銀的線材,個人覺得意義不大,主要還是C/P值超低。

    總歸一句話、用自己的耳朵去選,喜歡的就是好線。

    P.S.
    有件事情前面忘了講,開機要暖機是為了讓真空管達到工作溫度,關機就不用等、直接切回Stand by再關掉電源即可。
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-30
  16. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    感謝木頭兄
    VOVOX哪家有賣呢?(或代理)
    剛剛逛了一下網拍,有看到Monster Studio Pro 1000 Speaker Cable
    跟你說的Monster Performer 1000 Speaker Cable 應該是不一樣的吧?

    我自己只有兩條Monster Rock 21ft(有點後悔買這麼長,訊號會衰減)
    本來也有考慮Monster SP1000Speaker Cable
    但想換換牌子的聲音聽看看(雖然吉他導線跟喇叭線不一樣,好像不能這樣比較:confused:)
    我還想過自己做咧,只是也不知道要買什麼線跟頭

    講到喇叭線,問一下
    從錄音卡接到監聽喇叭用一般導線跟喇叭線會有差嗎?
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-30
  17. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

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    1.Vovox代理商是Midimall,人在台北的話直接殺過去買就可以了,打電話給他們也會報價。
    或者也可以問問比較大間的樂器行,通常都會吃一點代理商的貨,記得比一下價格。
    沒記錯的話、台灣沒有進套線,所以可以搭配自己喜歡的頭。
    頭比較有名的就是Neutrik、Switchcraft、G&H,個人偏好G&H,但台灣好像不好找。(之前聽說有進、但不曉得進到哪裡去)

    2.應該是Pro 1000 Speaker,我打錯字了。
    我自己之前用的是Performer 500 + Switchcraft (訊號線也有用過Pro 1000 12ft,特性差不多)。
    "個人"不是很喜歡Monster的Tone,但如果純就High Gain的表現是不會比Vovox遜色,因為壓縮重、相對Punch就大一點;
    Clean & Low Gain就謝謝再連絡。
    另外Pro 1000 Speaker國外好像停產了。

    3.http://www.modernmusician.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49716
    *我好像誤會了,監聽喇叭用Line Cables"應該"就可以,看端子是TRS或RCA。
    Cab用線請參照上面連結、Wizardma & 惡魔香腸兩位老師的說明。
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-31
  18. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

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    今天去電子材料行買了兩條各1米的喇叭線,線上面寫
    "→→→BONA Hi-Fidelity Cable Conductor 6N-PCOFC 2.0MM2X2C Trade NO. SP200→→→"
    線還蠻粗的,一般導線頭塞不太下,要把外皮削薄一點
    那個箭頭的意思是?
    打算先從我的監聽喇叭實驗(當然之後的Cab線會買現成的,不會自己做)
    先試試看跟一般的訊號線有沒有差別
    順帶一問,mic線跟一般吉他導線是一樣的嗎(訊號線)?
     
    Last edited: 2014-03-31
  19. 聰明的木頭

    聰明的木頭 Well-Known Member

    註冊日期:
    2004-10-24
    文章:
    10,495
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    箭頭表示訊號的方向性。
    基本上指向性這個說法以物理的角度來說是個迷信,除非是像Monster那樣做單端接地才有意義。
    http://www.modernmusician.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64838&langid=4
    http://www.modernmusician.com/forum/showthread.php?t=176263&langid=4
    P.S.音響物理的三大迷信:線材的指向性、高純度信仰、超冷處理。

    廣義來說、Mic線跟吉他導線"應該"是一様的,但Mic線牽扯到TRS,所以狹義上又有些許不同。
    這部分就看能不能請有專精的版友來回答。
    至少我買Analysis Plus的麥克風線跟監聽喇叭線的價格後者比前者貴了1/3倍。
     
    Last edited: 2014-05-31
  20. carreragt500

    carreragt500 Member

    註冊日期:
    2004-02-13
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    可是我兩條Monster Rock上面都沒有箭頭的符號
    (還是Rock上面沒有,Jazz才有:confused:)
    我試了一下,兩邊互換聲音是一樣的
     

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