有關三款高端話筒的問題

本文由 charmingguy2003-01-11 發表於 "錄音、音樂製作精華" 討論區

  1. charmingguy

    charmingguy New Member

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    我想了解關於sony c800g
    neuman m149
    akg c12
    這三款話筒的特性是什麽,適用何處?
     
  2. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    個人經驗,,,,

    #Sony C-800G

    此系列分C-800 & C-800G 兩款,,The tail "G" model comes with a cooller tail as well,,,此散熱裝置主要是針對tube pre的performance 很容易因長時間開機而影響收音特色,,..為了穩定收音表現而特殊設計cooller,suspension mount,,,,,.可算是硬體特色...

    #Neumann M-149

    Use the K-49 capsule,same as the famous U-47 & M-49,,,
    impedance converting apply tube,,,this is a major difference from eariler U-47 & M49,,,,the eariler design use transfomers,,,,,

    事實上個人非常喜歡original U-47 & M-49,,,,這兩款Mics 正好因為 apply transformers ,所以有一定的特色,,,,,換了tube 的K-49,,也自然有和U-47 & M-49 不同的風格,,,,

    #AKG C-12

    個人把 AKG C-12,C-24(2 crossed capsules version)奉為Mic 界的"王",,,,但我指的是銀色機身的original version,,,,不是後來的AKG C-12 reissue,,,,(事實上在original 和reissue 之間的差距,,有天地之別..或跟本毫無類似的表現...)...

    original AKG C-12就是一隻錄什麼都加分的"神器",,,她的音色甜美,,,連繁衍出來的C-12A,,(the ancient AKG C-414),,,,都值得收藏!!....

    P.S.在下不擅用"文字"形容"聲音".....且Micphone 會因使用者的手法而有相當不同的演出...
    所以什麼"透明的高音","渾厚的低頻",or"靈敏的互動",,,,,等太抽象的敘述,,我就免了!!!.....
     
  3. hua

    hua New Member

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    這段是來自這個某站某人的名言嗎?呵..
     
  4. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    妳很會"想"哩!!.....我沒有別的意思!!,, 但一直都覺得用"文字"or“語言"來描述"聲音"是很不'科學'的方式,,,...特別是喜歡音樂的人,,,常常用一些較自我標準的方式去形容聲音帶出的情緒,,,,這是很好的表達,,,但對器材的操控或理論的了解 o無大幫助!!,,,,,

    然而這些對聲音的形容表達卻也多少對溝通有幫助,,,,老實說,,我還蠻喜歡聽各式各樣的"形容",,特別的是,,,,各國語言都有一些區域性特質的"聲音形容",,,投射出每一個人的相似or相異,,,,,,

    anyway,有點離題了!!
    個人以為,,,當檢視聲音的放大鏡夠大,or眼力夠好時,,,當然會發現聲音的細節,,,,但情緒的反應卻包含了更多其他參數.........
    Mics 只是"放大鏡",,,,你的手才會決定看到什麼??....
    但不同的人看到同一畫面,,也難有相同程度的感受... 我只是很不擅長這類哈拉,,,,so,..就不浪費版面了!!,,,,,,honestly !!..
     
  5. 掌門人

    掌門人 當代校長張超然

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    To:Mr72
    銀色機身的 original C12 我用過的經驗也覺得很不錯 (錄 cello)。如果我記得沒錯的話,為何銀色機身的 C12 價格好像分成兩種- 一種只要 $2000 多 USD;另一種卻要約 $8000。這是怎麼一回事?難到以前也有兩個 versions?

    ================================
    聽 Mr72 比較原來的 C12 和之後的 reissued 版,讓我想起新版剛出來時,AKG 還發表過關於他們如何重新做出神器的文章,現在想起來挺有意思。AKG 宣稱為了讓原音重現,他們找了一票 C12 來比對,最後選一支聲音最好的來當 sample。之後則是努力做出和這支相同的覆製品。

    如根據 Mr72 的使用經驗,他們的努力似乎不太成功。然重製過往的經驗很少有成功的例子,看今日的 Fender reissue 就和 1954 年的產品有相當的差別。
     
  6. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    使用CK-12 capsule的Mics 種類還蠻多的,,,,,也很多不肖二手商人,用"拼裝貨"試圖魚目混珠,,,,or sometimes just "forgot" to put the "VR" or "A" in the C-12's tail in description......

    我想2,000.多 USD的C-12,,,可能只有外殼是original 的,,,,..好的C-12 (again !! NOT the VR version,,,,,)...現在是沒人會輕易出讓的,,,,,,,.

    順便一提,,我曾遇過有broker,,說要賣Mr.Allen Sides C-12 Mics,(He holds a lots of Vintage gears in "Ocean Way",,,,,),,直接問 Allen Side,...原來是某些C-12收藏品覺得有問題,,,所以才出讓,,,,,,,and ask for 8500.-USD...,,
    我遇過狀況好的C-12 or Elam-251,,通常要價12,000.-USD 以上,,,,,且少之又少,,, 能遇到就是運氣了!!!

    CK-12 is any of the various versions of the large 1-inch condenser capsule used in the AKG C-12, C-12a, C-12b, C-24, C-412, C-414 variants, The Tube, and the C-12VR, etc.,,,,,,
    BTW the CK nomenclature: the "C" stands for condenser and the "K" stands for capsule (in German capsule is spelled with a K).

    Here is a link for C-12's historical Docs:
    http://www.tonmeisterrecording.com/c12.html

    Allen Side 的這段話很有意思......

    Conventional measurement techniques do not always tell us the realities of one mic sounding better than another. A new mic that shows lower distortion, lower noise, and grater SPL capacity may still sound considerably less impressive than its tube counterpart. The things that we as engineers and musicians look for - size, richness, and what we call a musical sound - are difficult to define in purely technical terms......
     
  7. 掌門人

    掌門人 當代校長張超然

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    Mr 72 這樣講讓我想起來了。好像很多賣 C12 便宜的都沒提到 power supply,可能就是非 C12 VR 的版本或甚至是 C414 的前身等。我說要$8000 USD 是 early 90's 的價格,現在自然是更貴了。

    不過要價 $12000 除非是狀況很好,又是熟人,只怕大多是有行無市,必竟那樣的價格幾乎可以買一對 Manly 的 Gold Reference,或一支半那德國佬 (Brauner?...Mr72 好像認識這位仁兄) 做的 mic,而且二手品的風險太大- 假貨、更改品、次級品可能不耐用.....。

    Mr72 知不知道關於 C414 的早期是否有不同的 versions?又 C414 有一款 stereo version,我忘了型號,好像是 C424 和C426。這幾款如何?
     
  8. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    I look at mics the same way that I look at guitars,.. amplifiers,..and mic pres.,,,,,This is the link in the signal chain where I try to pick my coloration.,,,,

    Correct choices in these areas lessens knob twiddling and effects chaining further down the line. Even the decision to use an uncolored mic and/or mic pre is a creative choice, with its own implications.,,,,,

    The actual vintage microphone market,...as conducted by knowing professionals,...is an interesting area.,,,,These people know the various scams that are perpetrated on clueless buyers.,,,,They know the various production runs of mic models,.... and which ones were good and which were dogs.,,,,They also know that, due to component aging and due to various methods of usage, care, and storage, most vintage mics do not sound alike within a given model.,,,,,, When one of these people sells a mic, there is a lot more to the description and it is generally opened up and carefully examined for original parts, modifications, and any discrepancies.

    funny how,,,each improvement has been a double-edged sword, bringing both the joy of better audio( in a wayt !!) and the curse of finding yet another area that could be addressed.,,,,,,,

    1960....AKG developed the C 60 with Nuvistor...miniature tube (the name is derived from "nueva vista" -- a new vision),,,,,

    1961,,CK-12 & Mini-Röhre Nuvistor 7586 ... applied in The C 12A Nuvistor condenser microphone is developed as a predecessor of today's C 414.,,,,,,,

    The C-12 was produced from 1953 to 1963.,,,then the C-12A replaced C-12 after 1963....(,,,what a killing triger !!)........

    1970,The C 412, a solid-state version of the C 12 A with three polar patterns and a preattenuation pad selectable on the microphone is designed....the next year,,the C 412 is further improved and renamed C 414.,,,,,,

    1977,The C 414 is retouched again, specifically the housing, and fitted with an XLR connector. The designation is changed to C 414 EB......

    1986,The C 414 B-ULS launched in that year,,,,and it is the first C 414 version using ULS circuitry.,,,,,

    1993,The C 414 B-TL II dedicated version of the C 414 B-ULS for vocal use.,,,,

    and AKG do sell two C-414 B-ULS in a stereo pack,,,includes some stereo micing kit !!.....

    C-414 to me is good for "Brass" sound,chunky snare,,over-head,brass horns,...uses both figure "8" pattern for M/S stereo micing,,,,,,

    These are more or less about what I awared of C-414...I will pick the C-12 A as my best bet if I am lucky enough!!.....and it fit better with my ears and ages !!
     
  9. 掌門人

    掌門人 當代校長張超然

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    感謝 Mr 72 提供關於 C12 等非常有用的資訊。這類的 vintage mics 不知哪裡可查到年份?例如書目或網站列有序號之於年份等。
    Ultra Low Speed 是指何意?關於 ULS 這縮寫,據 AKG 90's 的目錄顯示是 ultra linear series,意指非常精準的系列,同於此系列 的還有 C460 ULS 等。
     
  10. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    年代序號我也不了哪找的到,,,下回AES遇到Pro再問問看!!,,,however,,the ture value might irrelevant to a serial number at all,,,, unless a "# 001" ,"#007",,,,,,ex,,,..to me personally,,I prefer anything comes with a "72",,,,,

    Here is a nice link for general information,,,,,,,
    http://members.aol.com/mihartkopf/frameset.htm
    & a nice article
    http://www.vintageking.com/12mics.htm

    BTW,,You are absolutely right !!,,The "ULS" stands for "Ultra Linear Series",,,,,意指非常精準的系列 or 非常直線性反應的系列,,,,,... !!!I

    Ooop!!.....Sorry !! mate !!,,,,,,It is just a very personal comment from myself,,,,similar like,,,"NTSC" is "Never The Same Colour",,,"PAL" is "Picture All Lost",,....I cut it out later !!!!,,,
     
  11. BetaTester

    BetaTester Member

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    看各位聊那麼多很有收獲...那Neumann 的幾款 tube 麥克風的reissue如何?會不會和原來的機種差很多?還是有比較好?看他們的產品真的很高檔。
     
  12. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    To BetaTester
    我認為沒有任何一款re-issue 可以全面性的相似,,,,無論是Neumann or AKG,,,Neve or Urei....,,Mics or compressor,,,or just anything,,!!,,但Vintage is not always equal to the "Good ones" !!

    How would you rate the re-issued Les Pauls are better or worse then the original ones ???...Hard..,isn't it ?...
    重要的還是學會怎麼發揮每一個器材的特性,,,才是上策,,,,,"好"的標準,每個人都有主觀定義,,,標準的"好",只怕無法滿足每一個人,,..
    基本上,,人人都想開"法拉利"or"保時捷"去飆車,,,...而速度的快感本身卻可藉"改裝"妥協,,,,"純正的血統"也許在起跑點滿足虛榮,,,但卻也是終點前的壓力,,....

    若真需要一些感性的文字敘述來激發觀想,,,,
    U-47 Fet is a "Solid Rock".....
    U-47 tube is a "Polish Jewel"....
    M-49 is a "Creamy Cheeze"....
    U-67 is a "Furry Pillow"....
    M149 is a "Singing Skylark"....
    No comment for U-87,U-67 reissue,,,,and the rest....They are,,,,,Microphones,,some nice tools for getting jobs done,,,..
     
  13. charmingguy

    charmingguy New Member

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    感謝mr72的回答,我順便問一下,如果用red7,推其中哪個話筒錄製taiwan style folk song的singer音色會比較合適?
     
  14. Mr72

    Mr72 Well-Known Member

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    其實真正在推Mics的是"聲音"....Mic pre 只是路徑,,,,,

    Focusrite Red Range 對我個人來說,,HF 有點太harsh,,,反應快但動作不夠優雅,,,,我喜歡最早期 ISA Range 的 Mic pre,EQ,,有機會試試 ISA 110....

    Again,,,我不太會推薦特定的器材,,Red 7 也還行,我想如果能試U-47,M-49,C-12,Elam 250,U-67,,,都會不錯的!!.....I guess "Tube" kinda mics with Red 7 would be a nice couple....

    打個比方,,Mic pre & Compressor giving the "texture" of sounds,,Mic & Mic pre giving the "coloration" of sounds,,,and it is very creative acts with everyone's own implications......Sometimes it is hard to making sound following musical objects as you wish,,,,,but it is always fun to discover some doubts,,,

    Don't let my suggestions block out your own fun,,...hearing is believing !!,,,,,
     

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