哎呀呀.,,,,,.我真是太遜了,最近看了Bon jovi Crush Tour..才知道原來Livin' On A Prayer 裡面的哇哇,是用唱的!! Richie Sambora合音用3支麥克風, 其中一支唱了會Wah...wu....Wah....wu 難怪怎麼試wah type都不像, 還懷疑是用唱的......sad but true! 另外我只知道用Z.Vex 附銅板的感應踏板 可以玩出蚊子忽遠忽近翁翁飛舞聲..... 還有其他詭異的效果器玩法嗎?Please tell me!
那ㄍ叫做Talk Box! 很多年以前台北新麗聲樂器行有，但上次去看好像沒有了。在美國約美金150。 Talk box不是像一般效果器接上就可以用，很麻煩的。請詳細閱讀我下面解說： talk box要怎麼接呢？它的效果是怎麼製造的呢？ 首先講接法：最好是用那種音箱頭和喇叭箱分開的amp。將音箱頭通到喇叭箱的導線接到talk box，然後另一條導線從talk box接到喇叭箱，當啟動talk box後，音箱頭的訊號就不傳到喇叭箱了。talk box裡面本身是喇叭單體後面的driver構造，會發出聲音傳向那條膠管。那條膠管要架在麥克風旁你用嘴含著，膠管傳來的吉它聲在你嘴中靠你嘴型變化產生"嗚哇"和講話效果(就像吹小口琴用手包悶起來， 然 後張閉手發出哇嗚效果)，然後聲音從你嘴巴出來，由你嘴前面的 麥克風傳送到P.A. Mixer和喇叭出音。 所以你的吉他音箱喇叭是不出音的，如果你用的是combo型音箱(音箱頭和喇叭一體的)，你就要改造後級通向喇叭的線路使之能外接talk box。 當然啦，如果你沒有整套麥克風唱歌系統就沒得玩啦！ 就是使用這麼麻煩！有一家日本公司後來生產了一種像一般效果器接法的talk box，理完全不同。是你講話發出聲通過那條膠管在talk box中與吉他訊號混合出效果。當然效果沒有第一代自然！ 我上次解說後實際查訪才發現這種第二代早就沒人做了。 talk box 原由Heil(公司名和發明人姓氏)早年發明生產，但現在是由 Dunlop公司收購專利生產(亦收購了crybaby等早期效果器的專利)，所以現在應稱為 Dunlop Heil Talk Box。
Talking Box 不過是俗稱"Vocoder"(or similiar to Ring Modulator EFX)的EFX...沒各位說的那麼複雜,深奧,,, Vocoder EFX 有兩個元素 * carrie source...(GT in your case) * VOX input source....(膠管...or Mics) 這種trick在rock band是有點小花俏,,,,但對DJ or MC 卻是太常用的招.....and Disco時代也常用.......
大哥您的回應把Richie Sambora用的Heil Talk Box跟Vocoder搞不清楚, 還說我們講的太複 雜, Vocoder是主要用於麥客風收人聲後的效果器, 像電影中機器人講話那種聲音就是用Vocoder講的, 它是把訊號做電子式Modulation, 吉他接上Vocoder並不能做出Heil Talk Box的效果, 因為吉他傳來的音不是"講話"的聲調, Heil Talk Box的原理雖然笨, 但它把吉他 傳來的聲音在你嘴裡做Modulation, 所以可以靠你嘴型變化搞出像講話的吉他音色 您大概不知吉他用的Heil Talk box是啥, 只知Vocoder, 所以 也是可以理解, 因為Vocoder也有人稱Talk Box talk box是吉他用ㄉ 而那Voo Doo是主唱ㄉ效果!
To Shiya 對不起...剛好我就有一個GT 用的 Talk Box和兩個vocoder unit,,,,真的沒什麼兩樣....(in both theory & application) 古早的vocoder不一定可以把modualation input source 拿掉,而現在的vocoder已沒有這類問題,,,,,,也有人稱這類EFX為warp..... in case you don't know yet, modualation program 的 input 可以是OCS generator or vocal sound or anything.......it just works differently... 機器人的聲音是VOCAL sound carrier ＋ pitch modualation...... 而"living on a prayer"的 GT 是 GT sound carrier + Vocal(膠管 input) modualation.....O.K.!!?? there is NO difference in Eletronic Theory at all.... 您大概不知Engineer用的 vocoder是啥, 只知Talk Box, 所以 也是可以理解, 因為Talk Box也有人稱vocoder Vocoder是audio engineer 做給大家隨便用的效果!不一定只給GT用........
你們不要爭吵啦! 我算是Richie的Crazy Fan, 所以提供一點個人收集的資料, 但也不知準不準, Richie管他那個效果器叫"Voice Box", 它並非吉他或Vocal用的Vocoder, 也不是Dunlop Heil Talk Box, 是跑去向訂做效果器的人訂做的, 所以沒有廠牌, 是照Shiya講的那種Heil Talk Box原理做, 因為他覺的Dunlop用的喇叭單體Driver不夠強, 發出聲音通過膠管後不夠大聲
剛才我又去把那場Bon Jovi演唱會影片拿出來仔細看了一下, Richie唱歌時是用另一支Mic, 要做那種效果才會跑去那支在裝膠管的Mic, 所以我推論上面Shiya講的那種原理比較說的通, 如果像Mr72講的input Source = GT+膠管Vocal, 那麼前面裝那支mic不就是多此一舉, 或者那Mic是Vocoder的input的話那膠管不就多此一舉, Richie還含著膠管很努力的把嘴湊到mic前 我是neither玩過Vocoder或Dunlop Heil Talk Box, 以上純個人推論
我在網上研究了好幾小時, 不知Mr72用的是哪種廠牌哪種型號Vocoder, 可以把吉他 + 講話 = 講話的吉他, 可否說一下讓我去研究, 研究了一些理論好像應是吉他 + 講話 -> 經過Vocoder處理 = 像Synth的吉他 + 像Synth的講話(兩者mix在一起), 倒是網上搜尋到Dunlop Heil Talk Box的裡論就跟上面講的一模一樣, 超囉嗦的, 以下就是截錄搜尋到的一些Talk Box和Vocoder解釋, 大家幫忙看看: 先講Vocoder: VOCODER OPERATION: A vocoder takes two input signals; a modulator and a carrier. The output consists of the waveform of the carrier, colored with the frequency spectrum of the modulator. Typically the carrier input will be a synthesizer, and the modulator input will be a microphone. The modulator is split to an array of bandpass filters, each one examining a unique frequency band. The amplitude of the output of each frequency band is passed forward to the carrier module. The carrier signal is split into a second array of bandpass filters, of the same frequency bands as the first. The output is a mix of the outputs of the second array of bandpass filters, with the level controlled by the amplitude of the signal in the first array. More simply stated, you can imagine a graphic equalizer on the carrier, and the height of the slider is being constantly updated according to a spectrum analyser showing the frequency spectrum of the modulator. A vocoder cannot add frequencies which are not present in the carrier. It can only emphasise frequencies which are in the carrier and modulator, and subtract frequencies which are present in the carrier but missing from the modulator. Therefore for best results, the carrier signal should have a wide bandwidth, such as a sawtooth wave or white noise. The worst case would be a sine wave carrier, which would simply change in amplitude. A vocoder with a large number of very narrow bands will pass the modulator signal more accurately, although the computing power (if digital) increases dramatically. 再來講Talk Box: HOW DOES THE TALK BOX WORK? The talk box uses your mouth as an additional sound chamber, allowing you to form your sound into words and phrases. To understand the concept, first think about how your form words. The air is pushed from your lungs, through your vocal chords and then you form the air in your mouth and nasal cavity to produce a different sound. The Talkbox replaces that air from your lungs with the sound of your instrument, allowing you to form it into words and phrases. The Talkbox takes the signal from your Amplifier Speaker Output and sends it though the hose. You place the hose in the corner of your mouth between your back teeth. Basically, you are replacing the air that is pushed from your lungs with the sound coming out of your amp. You put the hose between your back teeth, because you want that sound starting as far back in your mouth as possible, so that it can be completely formed by your mouth. With the hose in place, play a note with your instrument and form the sound with your mouth. Do not make any sound with your voice, just mouth the sound or word. Begin by mouthing the vowels, A, E, I, O, U. You will find that the more exaggerated you form your mouth, the better the effect will sound. Next, work on saying words with hard consonants, such as B,D,G,J,K,P,Q,T,V - "good" "bad" "give" "take" Then move on to phrases and complete sentences. "Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown" You will also find that when you bite down partially on the hose, the sound will change. If you bite down on the hose completely, there will be no sound. HOW DO I SET UP THE TALK BOX? Requirements: Amp Head with a speaker out Microphone with a P.A. system (amp and speaker) 8 ohm speaker or speaker cabinet Setup 1. Hook your guitar up to any pre-amp effects you desire (Crybaby, Fuzz Face, Distortion +, etc.) 2. Have the last item in your pre-amp effects go into the input of your Amp Head. Connect a cable from the speaker out of your Amp Head to the input of the Talkbox. (Be sure to use a heavy duty speaker cable, not a standard guitar cable.) Caution: The Talkbox is an 8 ohm speakert 100 watts max power or 50 watts RMS. Check the specifications on your amplifier to verify that it will not overpower the Talkbox. 3. Connect your 8 ohm speaker or speaker cabinet to the output of the Talkbox. The switch on the Talkbox toggles whether the Talkbox is on or the sound is passed unmodified through to the speaker connected to the output of the Talkbox. 4. Put the end of the clear tube of the Talkbox up alongside your microphone, so that the tube fits in your mouth, close to the microphone. Have your microphone set up as you normal would using another amp and speaker. 5. You are now ready to recreate the vintage sounds of the Talkbox! Practice moving your mouth and tongue to produce vowels and consonants while playing single notes on your guitar. null
糯米團的唱片裡就有用talk box,他們的表演有時也會用到. 但使用talk box的經典先驅首推Jeff Beck,可聽聽Blow By Blow中的She's Woman,在他和Jan Hammer Group的現場專輯中,這首曲子中的talk box即興樂句堪稱一絕. 此外還有Peter Frampton也使用很頻繁(Show Me the Way...),他的talk box不但是custom made的,甚至還以他的名字為品牌命名進而量產,也廣受其他吉他手歡迎,包括Richie Sambora of Bon Jovi. 關於Peter Frampton talk box的使用與其他器材的設定,可試聽. Framptone的talk box.
在下用的是Rocktron 的 Talk Box,Eletrix Warpfactory 和MAM VF11 vocoder..... 簡單的說,這類efx的elements有兩個.. *1 Sound Source carrier *2 Formant texture 通常 1 大多是較sustained sound ..like GT Power Chord or organ synths....... 2 則相對的是較percussive 的sound source,,..like vox or drum loop........ 而當formant texture 太percussive 時,warpping 的效果就會較差or even 隨著 formant amptitude的大小 而呈現on/off..所以有些preset會warping *1 firstly..再morphing with formant texture feed back looping 以補足原source的sustain time lenght....(which is quite common with GT applications)..... anyway,這類效果的呈現的好壞通常關悉到兩者間的配和,....小K先生也許可以再試看看,,,,,,雖然一般vocoder可調參數不多,但extra out-boards' EQ,frequency filters,,...可以用來彌補efx units上的不足........... 個人認為有些器材雖難以取代.... 但絕非唯一的選擇,,,當然..如果"含著膠管邊彈GT"才是訴求,,,小弟的意見各位自可跳過,,,,,,, P.S.在下一點爭吵的意思也沒有,只是針對"EFX 的神奇用法"發表意見.若文字態度有偏差,,就請各位同學多包涵 了!!....
我研究半天大概也懂你的意思了, 用Vocoder做"哇嗚"這類發音的效果是參數調的出來的, 我之前所以不懂的是想不通vocoder怎麼把"講話發音"變成Modulation Method, 去改變吉他的Signal變成講話的型式, 也就是我要吉他能發出"當代樂手"這樣的字, 在Vocoder上的參數要怎麼設定, 研究半天都沒看到此功能, 才會問你廠牌型號, 看來用Dunlop Talk Box 那種雖然原理很笨, 但簡單多了 至於Rocktron的Banshee Talk Box, 我剛才在網上也有研究到, 可以跟各位報告一下, 它是像Dunlop Talk Box那樣有一條膠管需要一支Mic在前面收音到PA去出音, 但是它本身有5W的Amp在裡面, 可以自行發出聲音通向那膠管, 不需像Dunlop那樣接在Head的Speak out靠吉他amp出音, 所以也不需接在Head與Cabinet之間, 可以跟其他單顆串接在一起 今天終於把Richie Sambora的Voice Box搞懂了